Posts by Disillusioned JW

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Regarding what happened in 605 BCE regarding Judah https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/2-kings-24/ says the following.

"i. Nebuchadnezzar came against Jerusalem because the Pharaoh of Egypt invaded Babylon. In response the young prince Nebuchadnezzar defeated the Egyptians at Charchemish, and then he pursued their fleeing army all the way down to the Sinai. Along the way (or on the way back), he subdued Jerusalem, who had been loyal to the Pharaoh of Egypt.

ii. This happened in 605 b.c. and it was the first (but not the last) encounter between Nebuchadnezzar and Jehoiakim. There would be two later invasions (597 and 587 b.c.).

iii. This specific attack is documented by the Babylonian Chronicles, a collection of tablets discovered as early as 1887, held in the British Museum. In them, Nebuchadnezzar’s 605 b.c. presence in Judah is documented and clarified. When the Babylonian chronicles were finally published in 1956, they gave us first-rate, detailed political and military information about the first 10 years of Nebuchadnezzar’s reign. L.W. King prepared these tablets in 1919; he then died, and they were neglected for four decades."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonian_captivity says the following.

"After the Battle of Carchemish in 605 BCE, the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II besieged Jerusalem, which resulted in tribute being paid by the Judean king Jehoiakim.[1] In the fourth year of Nebuchadnezzar II's reign, Jehoiakim refused to pay further tribute, which led to another siege of the city in Nebuchadnezzar II's seventh year (598/597 BCE) that culminated in the death of Jehoiakim and the exile to Babylonia of his successor Jeconiah, his court, and many others; Jeconiah's successor Zedekiah and others were exiled when Nebuchadnezzar II destroyed Jerusalem in his 18th year (587 BCE), and a later deportation occurred in Nebuchadnezzar II's 23rd year (582 BCE). "

The above confirms to me that the first siege of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar really was in 605 BCE instead of in 597 BCE.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

It looks like the first siege on Jerusalem might have been in 597 BCE instead of 605 BCE, though the battle at Carchemish was in 605 BCE. See https://www.britannica.com/biography/Nebuchadnezzar-II . That article does also say the following, however. "On expeditions in Syria and Palestine from June to December of 604, Nebuchadnezzar received the submission of local states, including Judah, and captured the city of Ashkelon." But note though that https://www.rationalchristianity.net/jeremiah.html says the following.

"605 First attack of Nebuchadnezzar on Jerusalem (2 Ki 24:1-2)

597 Reign of Jehoiachin (3 months) (2 Ki 24:8-17, 25:27-30, 2 Chr 36:9-10)

597 Second attack of Nebuchadnezzar on Jerusalem (2 Ki 24:8-17)

597-586 Reign of Zedekiah (2 Ki 24:17-25:7, 2 Chr 36:10-20)

586 Third attack on Jerusalem; Jerusalem destroyed (2 Ki 25:1-21)"

2 Kings 24:1-2 (1984 NWT) says Jehoiakim became the "servant" of "Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon", but that after three years Jehoiakim rebelled and that as a result "Jehovah began to send against" Jehoiakim "marauder bands of Chaldeans" and others, and "against Judah to destroy it".

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Correction: In my prior post I meant to say "The New Oxford Annotated Bible (a study Bible) says the following regarding Jeremiah 25:11-12" instead of "The New Oxford New Annotated Bible (a study Bible) says the following regarding Jeremiah 11-12", but I ran out of time in correcting my typos.

Further information: The same study Bible says the following regarding Jeremiah 29:8-10. "In contrast to the early return from exile predicted by the other prophets, Jeremiah says the exile will last an entire lifetime (seventy years, 25.11; 27.7)."

By the way, the edition of the study Bible I am referring to is the "Augmented Third Edition", and it is for the "New Revised Standard Version with the Apocrypha".

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Regarding Jeremiah 29:10 and its reference to the exile being foretold to end after 70 years, it should be noted what The Interpreter's One-Volume Commentary on the Bible says. It says the following. "29:10-14. This passage is probably a later insertion, coming from an editor who knew that from the battle of Carchemish in 605 (cf. 46:2) to the Persian capture of Babylon in 539 was roughly seventy years. The intention is to encourage restoration hopes."

The New Oxford New Annotated Bible (a study Bible) says the following regarding Jeremiah 11-12. "Seventy years (cf. 29.10). The period from 605 BCE until the defeat of Babylon by Cyrus the Persian in 539 BCE is sixty-six years. Seventy, however, is likely a symbolic number, representing the length of a lifetime (Ps. 90.10)."

Regarding the WT saying that Jerusalem was destroyed in 607 BCE (instead of in 587/586 BCE), the WT originally said it was in 606 BC. That year is only one year earlier than the 605 BCE date of the first siege upon Jerusalem (at least according to the Bible, see Daniel 1:1-2, and other sources). According to the Bible some captives, including Jehoiakim the king of Judah, were taken at that time into exile. The gentiles can thus be said to have begun trampling Jerusalem at 605 BCE, though Jerusalem was not desolated at that time (though it likely experienced some damage at that time). If the society were to adjust their 607 BCE teaching to 605 BCE and focus upon what happened in that year and if they also said that Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE or 586 BCE, then they would be much more in harmony with secular scholars. Doing such would entail a minor adjustment of their 1914 date to 1916 (or so, depending in which month the siege in 605 BCE took place in), but that would be no more a problem than their existing 1914 date. They might even wish to link it with a comment of Russell having died in 1916. Perhaps they also might go back to saying that Russell spiritually ascended to heaven in 1916 and say he began ruling with Christ in 1916, and say that the timing is highly significant. Doing that would likely require an adjustment to what they say happened in 1918 in regards to their scriptural claims.

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Jeremiah 25:11 clearly says that "these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon for 70 years" and that clearly means that the verse is saying those nations must become in servitude to Babylon for 70 years. Verses 2-9 along with verses 15-18 indicates that the kingdom of Judah was included in those called "these nations". It is not necessary that the Bible use the specific wording of "70 years of Babylonish domination or servitude" in order convey that idea, provided an expression with the meaning is clearly indicated.

scholar, since you believe the Book of Daniel describes the experiences of an actual person named Daniel, notice what Daniel 1:11-12. There is says that Daniel (in the court king of Babylon) referred himself as a servant of his guardian and the chapter indicates that the guardian was employed by "Nebuchadnezzer the king of Babylon", thus making Daniel also a servant of the king. Daniel 2:48-49 also indicates (according to the Book of Daniel) that Daniel was an employee of the Babylonian king.

But Jeremiah 25:12 is also relevant to helping us to see that the book of Jeremiah says the people of Judah (at least of Jerusalem) were to be exiled for 70 years in Babylon. My first clue to that was the heading of "70 years' exile in Babylon foretold" in the 1984 (bi12-E) edition of the NWT, on page 999 which includes Jeremiah 25:5 -19. In Jeremiah 25:12 the 1984 NWT has a scripture cross reference pertaining to when "seventy years have been fulfilled". The cross reference is to three verses of which one is Jeremiah 29:10. The heading for the page which has Jeremiah 29:10 says in part "Exiled 70 years.". The verse on that page says the following.

' “For this is what Jehovah has said, ‘In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon I shall turn my attention to YOU people,+ and I will establish toward YOU my good word in bringing YOU back to this place.’ ' For context, note also that verse 4 of the same chapter says the following. ' “This is what Jehovah of armies, the God of Israel, has said to all the exiled people, whom I have caused to go into exile+ from Jerusalem to Babylon'. Jeremiah chapter 29 is thus very clearly saying that the Jewish people of Jerusalem (the main city of the kingdom of Judah) were to be released from exile in Babylon after 70 years. In case you wondering what "place" (to which the people were return to, according to the Bible) was referred to in verse 10, see verse 1 of the same chapter (chapter 29). That verse says the place was Jerusalem, for it says the following.

"And these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem to the remainder of the older men of the exiled people and to the priests and to the prophets and to all the people, whom Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar had carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon".

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

Correction: In my prior post I made an error in saying that 'The above is also further evidence that the 'Book of Daniel" has ... some incorrect predictions of what was to happen soon after the year 164 B.C.E. (such as the establishment of God's kingdom over the whole planet Earth and hence the end of all gentile governments).'

It was incorrect me to say such because the quotes I made from the two study Bibles did not point out errors in predictions in the "Book of Daniel". Furthermore, in the introductions and commentary to the "Book of Daniel" in those two particular study Bibles there was no statement of a failed prediction in the Book of Daniel. However though they did not point out any failed predictions in the "Book of Daniel", other scholarly books did point out failed predictions, and I am convinced that the predictions pertaining to what was said to happen soon after the year 164 B.C.E. are failed predictions, instead of yet to be fulfilled future events.

Further information: Regarding scholar's comment to me of "This mere opinion for you notice that no firm evidence is provided for this nonsense" in reference to the what the introduction of the two study Bibles said regarding Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the two study Bibles provided some of the evidence in the commentary of the biblical verses. I did not bother type that documentation into my post. I invite those interested to read them directly in either of the two study Bibles. Furthermore, other scholarly books mention in detail how a number of verses in the "Book of Daniel" pertain to Antiochus IV Epiphanes. I encourage people to read some of those books also.

48

"Jehovah God"

by Jeffro in

the expression "jehovah god" has always seemed strange to me.

even when i was a jw, i found the term awkward, and never used it myself.

both words are nouns intended to be synonyms of each other, unless the name "jehovah" is being used as an adjective, which is also weird.

Disillusioned JW

Regarding belief in the biblical God and in God in general, according to "the latest Gallup Poll, belief in God dipped to 81 percent, down six percentage points from 2017, the lowest since Gallup first asked the question in 1944." See https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2022/06/24/poll-americans-belief-god-is-dropping/ for my source about that; the Gallup web page referred in the first link confirms the poll results mentioned in the above news article. The article says that the poll says "Only 68 percent of adults ages 18-29 said they believed in God (compared with 87 percent of Americans age 65 or older.)"

The article also says the following.

'Belief in God is correlated more closely with conservatism in the United States, and as the society’s ideological gap widens, it may be a contributor to growing polarization. The poll found that 72 percent of self-identified Democrats said they believed in God, compared with 92 percent of Republicans (with independents between at 81 percent).

In recent years there has been a rise in the number of Americans who acknowledge being Christian nationalists — those who believe Christian and American identities should be fused.

“It could be that the increase in the number of atheists is a direct result of Christian nationalism,” said Ryan Cragun, a sociologist at the University of Tampa who studies the nonreligious. “They seem to be dominating the rhetoric. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is legitimately backlash against it and people saying, ‘You know what? I’m an atheist.’ ” '

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

This post is addressed to those who believe in the Bible, including believing that the
biblical book called "Daniel" was written by a prophet named Daniel in the 6th century BCE. It is not directed to my fellow atheists, though some of them might appreciate the post.

The OXFORD STUDY BIBLE: Revised English Bible with the Apocrypha (copyright 1992) and The New English Bible with the Apocrypha: Oxford Study Edition (copyright 1976) in their introduction to "The Book Of Daniel" say the following (except that the Oxford Study Edition says "B.C." instead of "B.C.E.").

"The reports about Daniel in this book may contain elements about an older figure, or figures, with the same name .... in chs. 7-12 the author builds on elements from the Book of the Prophet Ezekiel to fashion the most fully developed example of apocalyptic literature in the Old Testament ....

The stories and visions are set in the Babylonian and Persian periods (sixth-fourth centuries B.C.E.), but they reflect a later time, primarily that of successors to Alexander the Great. Antiochus IV Epiphanes (175-163 B.C.E) and his wars with the Egyptians (see 7.8 n.) are especially in view. In chs. 7-12, Antiochus though anonymous as befits apocalyptic literature, emerges in more and more detail as the oppressor of the Jews."

Both study Bibles say the following regarding Daniel 2:37-40.

"The four kingdoms are usually taken to be the Babylonian, the Median, the Persian, and the Macedonian Greek; compare 8.20-21. There is no confirming evidence for the opinion (9.1), found in Jer. 51.11,28 as well, that the Medes existed as a world power quite separate from the Persians."

Regarding Daniel 4:33 the annotation/commentary in the two study Bible editions say the following. "A temporary lapse in the reign of Nebuchadnezzar is unknown, but does fit the last Babylonian king, Nabonidus, who (inexplicably) spent part of his reign at the north Arabian oasis of Talma."

The above is further evidence that the book called "Book of Daniel" (or simply named "Daniel") was written in about the year 164 B.C.E. The above is also further evidence that the 'Book of Daniel" has at least one incorrect view about the period prior to 164 B.C.E. (such as regarding the Medes), and some incorrect predictions of what was to happen soon after the year 164 B.C.E. (such as the establishment of God's kingdom over the whole planet Earth and hence the end of all gentile governments).

540

Simple Question Re 1914

by Slidin Fast in

wt claims that satan was thrown out of heaven in october 1914 precipitating ww!

and the end times.

a small problem with that is ww1 started on july 28th 1914 whilst satan was still in heaven picking his nose.. how did we not see this and waste years of precious life?

Disillusioned JW

This post is addressed to those who believe in the Bible, including believing that the biblical book called "Daniel" was written by a prophet named Daniel in the 6th century BCE. It is not directed to my fellow atheists, though some of them might appreciate the post.

THE OXFORD COMPANION TO THE BIBLE (copyright 1993), Edited by Metzger and Coogan, has an article called "Daniel, The Book of." Note that though it uses that title for the entry of the article, it does not mean Daniel wrote the book, only that the article is referring to a book called "Daniel" (or to a the book called "Book of Daniel"). The article says the following.

"Date. The book of Daniel is one of the few books of the Bible that can be dated with precision. ...

With the possible exception of minor glosses, the book reached its present canonical form approximately in the middle of 164 BCE, though the translation of 1.1-2.42 and chaps. 8-12 from Aramaic into Hebrew may have taken later."

The article states some reasons for that view. For example it says the following.

'The lengthy apocalypse of Daniel 10-12 provides the best evidence for date and authorship. ...

The portrayal is expressed as *prophecy about the future course of events, given by a seer in Babylonian captivity; however the prevailing scholarly opinion is that this is mostly prophecy after the fact. Only from 11.39 onward does the historical survey cease accurately to reproduce the events known to have taken place in the latter years of the reign of Antiochus IV. The most obvious explanation for this shift is that the point of the writer's own lifetime had been reached. ...

According to the text of Daniel 7.9-27, the great judgment of "one like a *son of man [NRSV: human being]" ... should have occurred during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes, the "little horn" with the "mouth speaking arrogantly" (7.8). Such an eschatological crisis did not, of course, happen in the reign of Antiochus. The canonizers thmeselves must have known know this; perhaps they had already reinterpreted the four beasts who rise of the sea in chap. 7 in such a way as to make Rome the fourth beast and the little horn some Roman emperor.'

The article states clues to the authorship of the book and then it says the following.

'Given these clues internal to the book, modern commentators have frequently identified the authors of Daniel and the audience to which they spoke with the observant party of the "Hasideans" or hasidim, a title variously translated "the righteous ones," 'the godly ones," or even "the saints." '

48

"Jehovah God"

by Jeffro in

the expression "jehovah god" has always seemed strange to me.

even when i was a jw, i found the term awkward, and never used it myself.

both words are nouns intended to be synonyms of each other, unless the name "jehovah" is being used as an adjective, which is also weird.

Disillusioned JW

Hi Jeffro, thanks for addressing the questions I asked you and for answering some of them. Thanks especially for telling me the following. "I was raised in the denomination from early childhood and officially left when I felt that I could emotionally and financially support myself. ... I was never personally convinced that God exists, and therefore also not convinced of doctrines specific to JWs." I strongly thought that might the case (except I did not think it was to such a great extent) and now I know for sure. It clarifies a great deal to me. Have a great night and a great weekend.

Thanks also for saying why you insist "... on correct details about Bible research (or any other subject with technical details) ...". I will try to keep that in mind and will try to comment in accordance with that knowledge.